ffmpeg output list question

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ffmpeg output list question

Mark Filipak
I run this command:
ffmpeg -ss 30.0 -i %1 -hide_banner -filter:v idet -frames:v 900 -an -f
rawvideo -y NUL
to gather data on multimedia source files (passed in via %1).

I've run it against a wide mix -- close to a hundred -- sources:
- 24 FPS,
- 25 FPS,
- soft telecined,
- hard telecined, and
- NTSC with embedded hard telecined (e.g., "Making of" documentaries).
I've included a typical output (with added line #s) at the bottom of
this message.

Question: Is the output listing documented anywhere?
Of particular interest are:
- the meaning of "tbr" (line 04),
- the meaning of "tbc" (line 04),
- the meaning of "dup" (line 18),
- why 'dup'+'drop'+'Neither'+'Top'+'Bottom' (lines 18 & 20) always
equals 901, and
- why 'Neither'+'Top'+'Bottom' (line 20) totals 830 instead of 1660.

Any/all input/opinion welcome. Thanks.

01 Input #0, mpeg, from 'J:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_02_1.VOB':
02   Duration: 00:17:58.04, start: 0.233567, bitrate: 7966 kb/s
03     Stream #0:0[0x1bf]: Data: dvd_nav_packet
04     Stream #0:1[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, top
first), 720x480 [SAR 32:27 DAR 16:9], Closed Captions, 29.97 fps, 59.94
tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
05     Stream #0:2[0x89]: Audio: dts (DTS), 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp,
1536 kb/s
06     Stream #0:3[0x80]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 448 kb/s
07     Stream #0:4[0x82]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s
08 Stream mapping:
09   Stream #0:1 -> #0:0 (mpeg2video (native) -> rawvideo (native))
10 Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
11 Output #0, rawvideo, to 'NUL':
12   Metadata:
13     encoder         : Lavf58.31.104
14     Stream #0:0: Video: rawvideo (I420 / 0x30323449), yuv420p,
720x480 [SAR 32:27 DAR 16:9], q=2-31, 124291 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbn,
29.97 tbc
15     Metadata:
16       encoder         : Lavc58.55.101 rawvideo
17 [mpeg @ 000001b42001a600] New subtitle stream 0:5 at pos:22458382 and
DTS:42.7761s
18 frame=  900 fps=0.0 q=-0.0 Lsize=  455625kB time=00:00:30.03
bitrate=124291.7kbits/s dup=71 drop=0 speed=44.6x
19 video:455625kB audio:0kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global
headers:0kB muxing overhead: 0.000000%
20 [Parsed_idet_0 @ 000001b4205d1c80] Repeated Fields: Neither:   799
Top:    17 Bottom:    14
21 [Parsed_idet_0 @ 000001b4205d1c80] Single frame detection: TFF:   289
BFF:     7 Progressive:   112 Undetermined:   422
22 [Parsed_idet_0 @ 000001b4205d1c80] Multi frame detection: TFF:   538
BFF:     0 Progressive:   285 Undetermined:     7
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
<[hidden email]>:
>
> I run this command:
> ffmpeg -ss 30.0 -i %1 -hide_banner -filter:v idet -frames:v 900 -an -f
> rawvideo -y NUL
> to gather data on multimedia source files (passed in via %1).

When asking questions on this mailing list, please do not use
-hide_banner (unless you want to report an issue with this
option).

> I've run it against a wide mix -- close to a hundred -- sources:
> - 24 FPS,
> - 25 FPS,
> - soft telecined,
> - hard telecined, and
> - NTSC with embedded hard telecined (e.g., "Making of" documentaries).
> I've included a typical output (with added line #s) at the bottom of
> this message.
>
> Question: Is the output listing documented anywhere?
> Of particular interest are:
> - the meaning of "tbr" (line 04),
> - the meaning of "tbc" (line 04),

Different time bases, tbn is the container, tbc is codec iirc.

> - the meaning of "dup" (line 18),

This is a message from the ffmpeg executable to tell you how many
frames were duplicated to get cfr output.

> - why 'dup'+'drop'+'Neither'+'Top'+'Bottom' (lines 18 & 20) always
> equals 901, and

dup is not related to neither top and bottom
(although the sum is related to your 900 request)

You can use -vsync 0 for your use case, it will avoid the duplicate
frames.

> - why 'Neither'+'Top'+'Bottom' (line 20) totals 830 instead of 1660.

I wrote originally:
Because there are less input frames than output frames, this is
related to the fact that your input are mpeg streams.

But the answer is more likely:
FFmpeg (and digital transcoders in general) doesn't know about fields,
it can only work with frames. (This is also related to the specifications
of sane video codecs.)

Carl Eugen
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Mark Filipak
On 12/15/2019 02:38 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:

> Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
> <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> I run this command:
>> ffmpeg -ss 30.0 -i %1 -hide_banner -filter:v idet -frames:v 900 -an -f
>> rawvideo -y NUL
>> to gather data on multimedia source files (passed in via %1).
>
> When asking questions on this mailing list, please do not use
> -hide_banner (unless you want to report an issue with this
> option).

Oh, sorry. I hope you'll respond again when you read below. I need to
figure things out.

C:\CMD & tiny apps\ffmpeg>ffmpeg -ss 30.0 -i j:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_02_1.VOB
-filter:v idet -frames:v 900 -an -f rawvideo -y NUL
ffmpeg version N-94664-g0821bc4eee Copyright (c) 2000-2019 the FFmpeg
developers
   built with gcc 9.1.1 (GCC) 20190807
   configuration: --enable-gpl --enable-version3 --enable-sdl2
--enable-fontconfig --enable-gnutls --enable-iconv --enable-libass
--enable-libdav1d --enable-libbluray --enable-libfreetype
--enable-libmp3lame --enable-libopencore-amrnb
--enable-libopencore-amrwb --enable-libopenjpeg --enable-libopus
--enable-libshine --enable-libsnappy --enable-libsoxr --enable-libtheora
--enable-libtwolame --enable-libvpx --enable-libwavpack --enable-libwebp
--enable-libx264 --enable-libx265 --enable-libxml2 --enable-libzimg
--enable-lzma --enable-zlib --enable-gmp --enable-libvidstab
--enable-libvorbis --enable-libvo-amrwbenc --enable-libmysofa
--enable-libspeex --enable-libxvid --enable-libaom --enable-libmfx
--enable-amf --enable-ffnvcodec --enable-cuvid --enable-d3d11va
--enable-nvenc --enable-nvdec --enable-dxva2 --enable-avisynth
--enable-libopenmpt
   libavutil      56. 33.100 / 56. 33.100
   libavcodec     58. 55.101 / 58. 55.101
   libavformat    58. 31.104 / 58. 31.104
   libavdevice    58.  9.100 / 58.  9.100
   libavfilter     7. 58.101 /  7. 58.101
   libswscale      5.  6.100 /  5.  6.100
   libswresample   3.  6.100 /  3.  6.100
   libpostproc    55.  6.100 / 55.  6.100
Input #0, mpeg, from 'j:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_02_1.VOB':
   Duration: 00:17:58.04, start: 0.233567, bitrate: 7966 kb/s
     Stream #0:0[0x1bf]: Data: dvd_nav_packet
     Stream #0:1[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, top
first), 720x480 [SAR 32:27 DAR 16:9], Closed Captions, 29.97 fps, 59.94
tbr, 90k tbn, 59.94 tbc
     Stream #0:2[0x89]: Audio: dts (DTS), 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp,
1536 kb/s
     Stream #0:3[0x80]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5.1(side), fltp, 448 kb/s
     Stream #0:4[0x82]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 192 kb/s
Stream mapping:
   Stream #0:1 -> #0:0 (mpeg2video (native) -> rawvideo (native))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
Output #0, rawvideo, to 'NUL':
   Metadata:
     encoder         : Lavf58.31.104
     Stream #0:0: Video: rawvideo (I420 / 0x30323449), yuv420p, 720x480
[SAR 32:27 DAR 16:9], q=2-31, 124291 kb/s, 29.97 fps, 29.97 tbn, 29.97 tbc
     Metadata:
       encoder         : Lavc58.55.101 rawvideo
[mpeg @ 00000263c8429580] New subtitle stream 0:5 at pos:22458382 and
DTS:42.7761s
frame=  900 fps=0.0 q=-0.0 Lsize=  455625kB time=00:00:30.03
bitrate=124291.7kbits/s dup=71 drop=0 speed=48.6x
video:455625kB audio:0kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global
headers:0kB muxing overhead: 0.000000%
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 00000263c8879300] Repeated Fields: Neither:   799 Top:
   17 Bottom:    14
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 00000263c8879300] Single frame detection: TFF:   289
BFF:     7 Progressive:   112 Undetermined:   422
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 00000263c8879300] Multi frame detection: TFF:   538
BFF:     0 Progressive:   285 Undetermined:     7

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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Mark Filipak
In reply to this post by Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
On 12/15/2019 02:38 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
-snip-
Thanks, Carl. I'm going to respond first to the most global
architectural issue (as I'm able to recognize issues and discriminate
between them).

> FFmpeg (and digital transcoders in general) doesn't know about fields,
> it can only work with frames. (This is also related to the specifications
> of sane video codecs.)

If ffmpeg doesn't know about fields, how can it decode interlaced content?

- Mark.

PS: I'm retired, but in a prior life I actually designed some video
hardware, NTSC (Atari research) & satellite gear (FPGA chips for HDTV
distribution), but the problem I have is interpreting what appears to me
to be inconsistent or ad hoc terminology in ff-docs. I'm attempting to
develop a video recognizer useful for preselecting HandBrake presets. So
far I've been wildly successful, but I have a few loose ends. I will
follow this message with specific questions regarding the details you
addressed, okay? - Thanks again.
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 22:20 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
<[hidden email]>:
>
> On 12/15/2019 02:38 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> > Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak

> > FFmpeg (and digital transcoders in general) doesn't know about fields,
> > it can only work with frames. (This is also related to the specifications
> > of sane video codecs.)
>
> If ffmpeg doesn't know about fields, how can it decode interlaced content?

The mentioned specifications require that conforming decoders output
frames (that may contain interlacing artefacts), this is independent
from the used encoding method (some codecs allow field encoding -
but the decoder has to output frames for such streams). I believe the
main reason is that no displays exist (anymore) that can display
fields.

Above is not necessarily true for hevc, FFmpeg does not support
hevc interlaced decoding though.

Carl Eugen
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Mark Filipak
On 12/15/2019 06:58 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:

> Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 22:20 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
> <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 12/15/2019 02:38 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
>>> Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
>
>>> FFmpeg (and digital transcoders in general) doesn't know about fields,
>>> it can only work with frames. (This is also related to the specifications
>>> of sane video codecs.)
>>
>> If ffmpeg doesn't know about fields, how can it decode interlaced content?
>
> The mentioned specifications require that conforming decoders output
> frames...

Carl, that's the most important information I've received to date. It
changes most of all my research -- mostly, it simplifies things. Thank
you very, very much.

I knew that ffmpeg encoders output solely frames, but I assumed that,
when an interlaced container was encountered, ffmpeg decoders (hence
HandBrake) worked with fields.

Due to the German in your messages, I assume you're in Europe. My
research needs some PAL VOB samples of the following:

- Vintage "PAL" Cinematic Source -- Purely 24 FPS content (no VBR) in an
25 FPS container (that plays at 25 Hz with 4% speedup).
- "PAL" Cinematic Source -- 25 FPS source (25th frame repeat) in a 25
FPS container (I currently have only 1 modern "PAL" movie sample).
- PAL TV Source -- 25 FPS sequential fields (from PAL TV).
- Mixed PAL Source -- PAL TV show with embedded movie clips (e.g., some
"Making of" documentaries).
- Vintage Mixed PAL Source -- Vintage PAL TV show (4% speedup) with
embedded movie clips (e.g., some "Making of" documentaries).

Do you know how/where I can obtain samples of the 5 source videos above?

=== Details ===
I've found, when VBR sources contain mixed sequential/progressive
content (example: Mixed NTSC TV with embedded 24 FPS clips), that line
doubling at 60 FPS (instead of decombing) produces a better transcode. I
assume that the same would be true for PAL at 50 FPS, but I don't have
any samples to confirm it.

Currently, getting the best HandBrake transcode is a matter of
trial-&-error. I'm trying to use the reports returned by
ffmpeg -ss 30.0 -i %1 -filter:v idet -frames:v 900 -an -f rawvideo -y NUL
to change that.

As I wrote in my initial post, so far I've been wildly successful. My
approach may be unique. It could revolutionize HandBrake -- it could
turn HandBrake into a truly 'one-click' transcoder. But I need some
sample PAL VOBs to proceed.

Best Regards, and Thanks Again! Happy Holidays!
Mark.
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 09:03 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
<[hidden email]>:

>
> On 12/15/2019 06:58 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> > Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 22:20 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
> > <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >> On 12/15/2019 02:38 PM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> >>> Am So., 15. Dez. 2019 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
> >
> >>> FFmpeg (and digital transcoders in general) doesn't know about fields,
> >>> it can only work with frames. (This is also related to the specifications
> >>> of sane video codecs.)
> >>
> >> If ffmpeg doesn't know about fields, how can it decode interlaced content?
> >
> > The mentioned specifications require that conforming decoders output
> > frames...
>
> Carl, that's the most important information I've received to date. It
> changes most of all my research -- mostly, it simplifies things. Thank
> you very, very much.

> I knew that ffmpeg encoders output solely frames, but I assumed that,

I may misunderstand but this is at least misleading, could be considered
wrong.

> when an interlaced container was encountered, ffmpeg decoders (hence
> HandBrake) worked with fields.

The FFmpeg infrastructure cannot work with fields which is the reason that
interlaced encodings of hevc and jpeg2000 are not supported correctly.

> Due to the German in your messages, I assume you're in Europe. My
> research needs some PAL VOB samples of the following:

> - Vintage "PAL" Cinematic Source -- Purely 24 FPS content (no VBR) in an
> 25 FPS container (that plays at 25 Hz with 4% speedup).

Just search for a a pal vob file of a movie.

> - "PAL" Cinematic Source -- 25 FPS source (25th frame repeat) in a 25
> FPS container (I currently have only 1 modern "PAL" movie sample).

I consider this broken, FFmpeg can (at least theoretically) fix such streams.

> - PAL TV Source -- 25 FPS sequential fields (from PAL TV).

Any pal transport stream, they of course exist both with interlaced and
progressive content, always interlaced encoding.

> - Mixed PAL Source -- PAL TV show with embedded movie clips (e.g., some
> "Making of" documentaries).
> - Vintage Mixed PAL Source -- Vintage PAL TV show (4% speedup) with
> embedded movie clips (e.g., some "Making of" documentaries).

Not sure about these, but they were mentioned here before.

I wonder in which category true vfr movies like the Titanic intro fall...

Generally, I don't think it is correct to argue that increasing frame rate
helps encoding, it depends on the specific input.

Carl Eugen
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Mark Filipak
On 12/16/2019 05:46 AM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:

> Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 09:03 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
>> I knew that ffmpeg encoders output solely frames, but I assumed that,
>
> I may misunderstand but this is at least misleading, could be considered
> wrong.
>
>> when an interlaced container was encountered, ffmpeg decoders (hence
>> HandBrake) worked with fields.
>
> The FFmpeg infrastructure cannot work with fields which is the reason that
> interlaced encodings of hevc and jpeg2000 are not supported correctly.

If I correctly interpret what you write regarding "misleading", what
about this?

Source -> Decode (rawvideo) -> process pictures (or "frames" if you
prefer) -> Encode -> Target file.

HandBrake doesn't have any way to package Targets as interlaced fields
and I was led to believe that it was because ffmpeg always outputs
frames. Is that not correct?
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Mark Filipak
In reply to this post by Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
On 12/16/2019 05:46 AM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 09:03 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
>> - Vintage "PAL" Cinematic Source -- Purely 24 FPS content (no VBR) in an
>> 25 FPS container (that plays at 25 Hz with 4% speedup).
>
> Just search for a a pal vob file of a movie.

I don't have any -- I'm in the USA. Do you know where I can get a sample
to analyze? Do you have such a VOB you could send me?
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
In reply to this post by Mark Filipak
Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 12:01 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
<[hidden email]>:

>
> On 12/16/2019 05:46 AM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> > Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 09:03 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
> >> I knew that ffmpeg encoders output solely frames, but I assumed that,
> >
> > I may misunderstand but this is at least misleading, could be considered
> > wrong.
> >
> >> when an interlaced container was encountered, ffmpeg decoders (hence
> >> HandBrake) worked with fields.
> >
> > The FFmpeg infrastructure cannot work with fields which is the reason that
> > interlaced encodings of hevc and jpeg2000 are not supported correctly.
>
> If I correctly interpret what you write regarding "misleading", what
> about this?
>
> Source -> Decode (rawvideo) -> process pictures (or "frames" if you
> prefer) -> Encode -> Target file.
>
> HandBrake doesn't have any way to package Targets as interlaced fields

That is because for digital video, this wording makes little sense (but
HandBrake would not work any different if it supported an encoder that
does field encoding, I wouldn't rule out that it already supports such an
encoder - Nvidia hardware encoder).

> and I was led to believe that it was because ffmpeg always outputs
> frames. Is that not correct?

FFmpeg encoders imo do not output frames, only decoders do (this is just
a wording issue), and at least one encoder - iirc - does support field encoding.

Carl Eugen
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
In reply to this post by Mark Filipak
Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 12:05 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
<[hidden email]>:

>
> On 12/16/2019 05:46 AM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
> > Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 09:03 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
> >> - Vintage "PAL" Cinematic Source -- Purely 24 FPS content (no VBR) in an
> >> 25 FPS container (that plays at 25 Hz with 4% speedup).
> >
> > Just search for a a pal vob file of a movie.
>
> I don't have any -- I'm in the USA. Do you know where I can get a sample
> to analyze? Do you have such a VOB you could send me?

Did you look at samples.ffmpeg.org or a random torrent site?

Carl Eugen
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Re: ffmpeg output list question

Mark Filipak
On 12/16/2019 06:06 AM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:

> Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 12:05 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
> <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> On 12/16/2019 05:46 AM, Carl Eugen Hoyos wrote:
>>> Am Mo., 16. Dez. 2019 um 09:03 Uhr schrieb Mark Filipak
>>>> - Vintage "PAL" Cinematic Source -- Purely 24 FPS content (no VBR) in an
>>>> 25 FPS container (that plays at 25 Hz with 4% speedup).
>>>
>>> Just search for a a pal vob file of a movie.
>>
>> I don't have any -- I'm in the USA. Do you know where I can get a sample
>> to analyze? Do you have such a VOB you could send me?
>
> Did you look at samples.ffmpeg.org or a random torrent site?

I didn't know about 'samples.ffmpeg.org'. Thanks, but
'samples.ffmpeg.org' doesn't appear to have enough samples of the
various types that interest me.

By my research I've found that, rather than package-type (as found at
'samples.ffmpeg.org'), a great HandBrake transcode is aided by selecting
presets based on the video's 'Source-type'. By "Source-type" I mean
- 24 FPS ("cinematic") video in a 24p container (a BD movie for
example), versus
- 24 FPS video in a 30i container (aka "soft telecined"), versus
- 30 FPS (aka "hard telecined") video in a 30i container, versus
- 30 FPS, mixed NTSC + hard telecined, etc.
Besides being terms that people understand, the above 'Source-types'
also provide the best way to select HandBrake presets. Now, I'm
attempting to use reports returned by
ffmpeg -i %1 -filter:v idet -frames:v 900 -an -f rawvideo -y NUL
to distinguish between 'Source-types' and thereby to select the best
HandBrake presets (instead of using trial-&-error). I believe my
approach has not been tried in the past.

The bottom line is that I need as many samples as I can find. I will
then analyze the samples to determine whether they provide enough
'Source-type' coverage to suit my purposes.

=== Details ===
I'm using the metrics returned by
ffmpeg -i %1 -filter:v idet -frames:v 900 -an -f rawvideo -y NUL
to develop mathematical models. The mathematical models figure out the
'Source-type' (which can then be used to select HandBrake presets). As I
previously wrote, so far I've been wildly successful. But I need PAL
samples.
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