V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

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V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Kieran O Leary
Hi,

When re-wrapping DPX or TIFF images to Matroska, it appears that FFmpeg
uses the V_QUICKTIME codec ID. Why is this used? Would something like
V_UNCOMPRESSED (for raw TIFF anyhow) b more appropriate/

The reason why I'm investigating this is that DPC and TIFF rewrappings to
Matroska appear to be fully reversible with matching whole-file checksums.

To replicate using ffmpeg and mediainfo:

$ ./ffmpeg -f lavfi -i testsrc -c:v tiff -compression_algo raw -y -t 1
1_tiff.mkv && mediainfo --Details=1 1_tiff.mkv|grep -i codec
ffmpeg version N-92521-g737b5f5869 Copyright (c) 2000-2018 the FFmpeg
developers
  built with gcc 7 (Ubuntu 7.3.0-27ubuntu1~18.04)
  configuration:
  libavutil      56. 24.101 / 56. 24.101
  libavcodec     58. 40.100 / 58. 40.100
  libavformat    58. 23.100 / 58. 23.100
  libavdevice    58.  6.100 / 58.  6.100
  libavfilter     7. 46.100 /  7. 46.100
  libswscale      5.  4.100 /  5.  4.100
  libswresample   3.  4.100 /  3.  4.100
Input #0, lavfi, from 'testsrc':
  Duration: N/A, start: 0.000000, bitrate: N/A
    Stream #0:0: Video: rawvideo (RGB[24] / 0x18424752), rgb24, 320x240
[SAR 1:1 DAR 4:3], 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (rawvideo (native) -> tiff (native))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
Output #0, matroska, to '1_tiff.mkv':
  Metadata:
    encoder         : Lavf58.23.100
    Stream #0:0: Video: tiff (tiff / 0x66666974), rgb24, 320x240 [SAR 1:1
DAR 4:3], q=2-31, 200 kb/s, 25 fps, 1k tbn, 25 tbc
    Metadata:
      encoder         : Lavc58.40.100 tiff
frame=   25 fps=0.0 q=-0.0 Lsize=    5638kB time=00:00:00.96
bitrate=48061.9kbits/s speed=58.3x
video:5636kB audio:0kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global headers:0kB
muxing overhead: 0.034428%
0001AE    CodecID - V_QUICKTIME (13 bytes)
0001CB    CodecPrivate (93 bytes)
$ ./ffmpeg -f lavfi -i testsrc -c:v dpx  -y -t 1 1_dpx.mkv && mediainfo
--Details=1 1_tiff.mkv|grep -i codec
ffmpeg version N-92521-g737b5f5869 Copyright (c) 2000-2018 the FFmpeg
developers
  built with gcc 7 (Ubuntu 7.3.0-27ubuntu1~18.04)
  configuration:
  libavutil      56. 24.101 / 56. 24.101
  libavcodec     58. 40.100 / 58. 40.100
  libavformat    58. 23.100 / 58. 23.100
  libavdevice    58.  6.100 / 58.  6.100
  libavfilter     7. 46.100 /  7. 46.100
  libswscale      5.  4.100 /  5.  4.100
  libswresample   3.  4.100 /  3.  4.100
Input #0, lavfi, from 'testsrc':
  Duration: N/A, start: 0.000000, bitrate: N/A
    Stream #0:0: Video: rawvideo (RGB[24] / 0x18424752), rgb24, 320x240
[SAR 1:1 DAR 4:3], 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 25 tbc
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (rawvideo (native) -> dpx (native))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
Output #0, matroska, to '1_dpx.mkv':
  Metadata:
    encoder         : Lavf58.23.100
    Stream #0:0: Video: dpx (dpx  / 0x20787064), rgb24, 320x240 [SAR 1:1
DAR 4:3], q=2-31, 200 kb/s, 25 fps, 1k tbn, 25 tbc
    Metadata:
      encoder         : Lavc58.40.100 dpx
frame=   25 fps=0.0 q=-0.0 Lsize=    5668kB time=00:00:00.96
bitrate=48312.5kbits/s speed=57.6x
video:5666kB audio:0kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global headers:0kB
muxing overhead: 0.033439%
0001AE    CodecID - V_QUICKTIME (13 bytes)
0001CB    CodecPrivate (93 bytes)
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Kieran O Leary
On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 10:46 AM Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> When re-wrapping DPX or TIFF images to Matroska, it appears that FFmpeg
> uses the V_QUICKTIME codec ID. Why is this used? Would something like
> V_UNCOMPRESSED (for raw TIFF anyhow) b more appropriate/
>


Ugh, This only happens with tiff - my command line was wrong for the DPX
mediainfo check :(((((
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
In reply to this post by Kieran O Leary
2018-12-08 11:46 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:

> When re-wrapping DPX or TIFF images to Matroska, it appears that
> FFmpeg uses the V_QUICKTIME codec ID.

Where can I find the specification for tiff in matroska and dpx in matroska?

> Why is this used?

> Would something like V_UNCOMPRESSED (for raw TIFF anyhow)
> be more appropriate/

If you use -vcodec rawvideo instead of tiff or dpx (which are not
rawvideo) you get V_UNCOMPRESSED but note that matroska
is not a useful container for rawvideo because it is not well
defined, use nut instead.

Carl Eugen
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
In reply to this post by Kieran O Leary
2018-12-08 11:46 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:

> When re-wrapping DPX or TIFF images to Matroska, it appears that
> FFmpeg uses the V_QUICKTIME codec ID.

Where can I find the specification for tiff in matroska and dpx in matroska?

> Why is this used?

The answer depends on above...

Carl Eugen
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Kieran O Leary
In reply to this post by Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
Hi Carl,


On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 11:00 AM Carl Eugen Hoyos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-12-08 11:46 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:
>
> > When re-wrapping DPX or TIFF images to Matroska, it appears that
> > FFmpeg uses the V_QUICKTIME codec ID.
>
> Where can I find the specification for tiff in matroska and dpx in
> matroska?
>

I don't think they exist - this remuxing is most likely not common/never
used. I'll get in touch with the CELLAR/IETF list and see if anyone has any
ideas. Also, as per my last email, DPX is fine - V_MS/VFW/FOURCC / dpx . I
just had a crappy command line :(

>
> > Why is this used?
>
> > Would something like V_UNCOMPRESSED (for raw TIFF anyhow)
> > be more appropriate/
>
> If you use -vcodec rawvideo instead of tiff or dpx (which are not
> rawvideo) you get V_UNCOMPRESSED but note that matroska
> is not a useful container for rawvideo because it is not well
> defined, use nut instead.
>

Cool, but why is a QuickTime ID used ? Is this some sort of generic
fallback that ffmpeg uses?

Best,

Kieran.
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Kieran O Leary
On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 12:10 PM Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi Carl,
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 11:00 AM Carl Eugen Hoyos <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> 2018-12-08 11:46 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> > When re-wrapping DPX or TIFF images to Matroska, it appears that
>> > FFmpeg uses the V_QUICKTIME codec ID.
>>
>> Where can I find the specification for tiff in matroska and dpx in
>> matroska?
>>
>
> I don't think they exist - this remuxing is most likely not common/never
> used. I'll get in touch with the CELLAR/IETF list and see if anyone has any
> ideas.
>

P.S - Carl - not sure if you're on CELLAR, but here's a link to the thread
I started - https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/cellar/
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
In reply to this post by Kieran O Leary
2018-12-08 13:10 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Carl,
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 11:00 AM Carl Eugen Hoyos <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> 2018-12-08 11:46 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> > When re-wrapping DPX or TIFF images to Matroska, it appears that
>> > FFmpeg uses the V_QUICKTIME codec ID.
>>
>> Where can I find the specification for tiff in matroska and dpx in
>> matroska?
>>
>
> I don't think they exist - this remuxing is most likely not common/never
> used. I'll get in touch with the CELLAR/IETF list and see if anyone has any
> ideas.

> Also, as per my last email, DPX is fine - V_MS/VFW/FOURCC / dpx . I
> just had a crappy command line :(

I don't think it's fine: You are using a very unusual fourcc to put something
in matroska that is not meant to be there, expect massive compatibility
issues.

>> > Why is this used?
>>
>> > Would something like V_UNCOMPRESSED (for raw TIFF anyhow)
>> > be more appropriate/
>>
>> If you use -vcodec rawvideo instead of tiff or dpx (which are not
>> rawvideo) you get V_UNCOMPRESSED but note that matroska
>> is not a useful container for rawvideo because it is not well
>> defined, use nut instead.
>
> Cool, but why is a QuickTime ID used ? Is this some sort of generic
> fallback that ffmpeg uses?

Just like the V_MS/VFW/FOURCC codec id above for avi, there is
also a QuickTime fallback defined for Matroska (not by FFmpeg),
tiff happens to be defined for QuickTime but not in avi, therefore
the QuickTime code point is used for Matroska.
Contrary to dpx above, this can at least be argued to be following
some standard.

Carl Eugen
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Kieran O Leary
On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 12:38 PM Carl Eugen Hoyos <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2018-12-08 13:10 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:
> > Hi Carl,
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 8, 2018 at 11:00 AM Carl Eugen Hoyos <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> 2018-12-08 11:46 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:
> >>
> >> > When re-wrapping DPX or TIFF images to Matroska, it appears that
> >> > FFmpeg uses the V_QUICKTIME codec ID.
> >>
> >> Where can I find the specification for tiff in matroska and dpx in
> >> matroska?
> >>
> >
> > I don't think they exist - this remuxing is most likely not common/never
> > used. I'll get in touch with the CELLAR/IETF list and see if anyone has
> any
> > ideas.
>
> > Also, as per my last email, DPX is fine - V_MS/VFW/FOURCC / dpx . I
> > just had a crappy command line :(
>
> I don't think it's fine: You are using a very unusual fourcc to put
> something
> in matroska that is not meant to be there, expect massive compatibility
> issues.
>

Good point.


>
> >> > Why is this used?
> >>
> >> > Would something like V_UNCOMPRESSED (for raw TIFF anyhow)
> >> > be more appropriate/
> >>
> >> If you use -vcodec rawvideo instead of tiff or dpx (which are not
> >> rawvideo) you get V_UNCOMPRESSED but note that matroska
> >> is not a useful container for rawvideo because it is not well
> >> defined, use nut instead.
> >
> > Cool, but why is a QuickTime ID used ? Is this some sort of generic
> > fallback that ffmpeg uses?
>
> Just like the V_MS/VFW/FOURCC codec id above for avi, there is
> also a QuickTime fallback defined for Matroska (not by FFmpeg),
> tiff happens to be defined for QuickTime but not in avi, therefore
> the QuickTime code point is used for Matroska.
> Contrary to dpx above, this can at least be argued to be following
> some standard.
>

This all makes sense to me and it's incredibly helpful. I see the TIFF
mapping in the QuickTime spec now.
So I guess that TIFF, and DPX need to be mapped in the Matroska
specification?

Best,

Kieran.
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
2018-12-08 13:45 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:

> So I guess that TIFF, and DPX need to be mapped in the Matroska
> specification?

Not sure if I am the right person to answer but why would you want to
put images into another container?

Shouldn't you keep the original image files and use ffmpeg to produce
a view copy in the requested quality?

Carl Eugen
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Kieran O Leary
On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, 12:48 Carl Eugen Hoyos <[hidden email] wrote:

> 2018-12-08 13:45 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:
>
> > So I guess that TIFF, and DPX need to be mapped in the Matroska
> > specification?
>
> Not sure if I am the right person to answer but why would you want to
> put images into another container?
>
> Shouldn't you keep the original image files and use ffmpeg to produce
> a view copy in the requested quality?
>

Image sequences are difficult to deal with,especially with LTO tape
libraries. Archives commonly use zip in either a compressed or uncompressed
form to alleviate this issue.
It's preferable to have an uncompressed or lossless single file for ease of
use, compatibility with tape libraries and digital asset management systems.
I would prefer to retain the original image sequence but it is not common
practise I'm archives from what I understand,for the reasons outlined above.
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Re: V_QUICKTIME used as codec ID for DPX/TIFF rewrapped to Matroska

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
2018-12-08 14:05 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:

> On Sat, 8 Dec 2018, 12:48 Carl Eugen Hoyos <[hidden email] wrote:
>
>> 2018-12-08 13:45 GMT+01:00, Kieran O Leary <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> > So I guess that TIFF, and DPX need to be mapped in the Matroska
>> > specification?
>>
>> Not sure if I am the right person to answer but why would you want to
>> put images into another container?
>>
>> Shouldn't you keep the original image files and use ffmpeg to produce
>> a view copy in the requested quality?
>
> Image sequences are difficult to deal with,especially with LTO tape
> libraries. Archives commonly use zip in either a compressed or
> uncompressed form to alleviate this issue.

How does this contradict what I write above?
Assuming a current high-quality, widely adopted video codec for the
view copy would be obsolete after a decade (that's too soon, no?),
that would mean one necessary access to the file system every ten
years: Is that too difficult to deal with?

> It's preferable to have an uncompressed or lossless single
> file for ease of use

I don't think so...
(But fortunately, it is your decision!)

Carl Eugen
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