Meaning of ffprobe output

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Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
Hi,

can anybody explain me the data of ffprobe, I don't find enough hints in
the docu. E.g.:
$ ffprobe CYD_copy.vob
Input #0, mpeg, from 'CYD_copy.vob':
  Duration: 01:16:20.74, start: 0.500000, bitrate: 7068 kb/s
    Stream #0:0[0x80]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 256 kb/s
    Stream #0:1[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, bt470bg,
top first), 704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc
What is:
tv
bt470bg
tbr
tbn
tbc

I'm also wondering, why Stream #0:1 is the video, as it was created by
$ ffmpeg -ss 00:03 -t 01:16:20 -i
"concat:001-C001/CYD-001.vob|001-C002/CYD-001.vob|..." -movflags
+faststart -c copy CYD_copy.vob
from files like
$ ffprobe 001-C001/CYD-001.vob
Input #0, mpeg, from
'/home/ich/Videos/dvdrip-data/CYD/vob/001-C001/CYD-001.vob':
  Duration: 00:00:20.41, start: 0.231578, bitrate: 74597 kb/s
    Stream #0:0[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, bt470bg,
top first), 704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc
    Stream #0:1[0x80]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 256 kb/s

After transcode with
$ ffmpeg -i CYD_copy.vob -movflags +faststart -vf atadenoise -c:v
libx264 -c:a libmp3lame -q:a 4 CYD_atadenoise_H.264.mp4
I get:
$ ffprobe CYD_atadenoise_H.264.mp4
Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from 'CYD_atadenoise_H.264_mp3-q4.mp4':
  Metadata:
    major_brand     : isom
    minor_version   : 512
    compatible_brands: isomiso2avc1mp41
    encoder         : Lavf57.83.100
  Duration: 01:16:20.42, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 1403 kb/s
    Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p,
704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 1276 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 12800 tbn, 50
tbc (default)
    Metadata:
      handler_name    : VideoHandler
    Stream #0:1(und): Audio: mp3 (mp4a / 0x6134706D), 48000 Hz, stereo,
fltp, 119 kb/s (default)
    Metadata:
      handler_name    : SoundHandler

Does 50 tbc mean, that I still have 50 interlaced half-frames per second?

Thanks for your comments

-Ulf

--
Von meinem Seibert gesendet

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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
2019-01-11 0:39 GMT+01:00, Ulf Zibis <[hidden email]>:

> can anybody explain me the data of ffprobe, I don't find enough hints in
> the docu. E.g.:
> $ ffprobe CYD_copy.vob
> Input #0, mpeg, from 'CYD_copy.vob':
>   Duration: 01:16:20.74, start: 0.500000, bitrate: 7068 kb/s
>     Stream #0:0[0x80]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 256 kb/s
>     Stream #0:1[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, bt470bg,
> top first), 704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc
> What is:

> tv
> bt470bg

Colour-space related information.

> tbr

The least common multiple of all framerates in the stream, a guess.

> tbn

This is the container timebase, 90k for mpeg streams.

> tbc

This is the codec timebase.

> I'm also wondering, why Stream #0:1 is the video, as it was created by
> $ ffmpeg -ss 00:03 -t 01:16:20 -i
> "concat:001-C001/CYD-001.vob|001-C002/CYD-001.vob|..."

vob has no stream order, "0:1" simply means "second stream
found be FFmpeg".

> -movflags +faststart -c copy CYD_copy.vob

Sadly, output option cannot (easily) be checked for correctness.
Using options that cannot have an effect may reduce your
chance to get good help here (consider the increased time it
needs to understand what's going on / what your intentions are).

Not necessarily related: "-c copy" cannot change anything
about fields ("half-frames"), libx264 does not support PAFF
encoding.

Carl Eugen
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
Thanks Carl Eugen ...

Am 11.01.19 um 01:47 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> 2019-01-11 0:39 GMT+01:00, Ulf Zibis <[hidden email]>:
>
>> tbn
> This is the container timebase, 90k for mpeg streams.

For what stands 90k? For 90,000 milli seconds?

>> -movflags +faststart -c copy CYD_copy.vob
> Sadly, output option cannot (easily) be checked for correctness.
> Using options that cannot have an effect may reduce your
> chance to get good help here (consider the increased time it
> needs to understand what's going on / what your intentions are).

The probably wrong '+' was taken from the example in the Wiki:
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Encode/H.264#AdditionalInformationTips
Maybe this is an error?
Because VOB also is coded with MPEG, I thought this flag may have a
positive effect.
Anyway, without the flag I get the same ffprobe data.


*From:*
$ ffprobe CYD_copy.vob
Input #0, mpeg, from 'CYD_copy.vob':
  Duration: 01:16:20.74, start: 0.500000, bitrate: 7068 kb/s
    Stream #0:0[0x80]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 256 kb/s
    Stream #0:1[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, bt470bg,
top first), 704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc
*I transcoded with:*
$ ffmpeg -i CYD_copy.vob -movflags +faststart -vf atadenoise -c:v
libx264 -c:a libmp3lame -q:a 4 CYD_atadenoise_H.264.mp4
*and get:*
$ ffprobe CYD_atadenoise_H.264.mp4
Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from 'CYD_atadenoise_H.264_mp3-q4.mp4':
  Metadata:
    major_brand     : isom
    minor_version   : 512
    compatible_brands: isomiso2avc1mp41
    encoder         : Lavf57.83.100
  Duration: 01:16:20.42, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 1403 kb/s
    Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p,
704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 1276 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 12800 tbn, 50
tbc (default)
    Metadata:
      handler_name    : VideoHandler
    Stream #0:1(und): Audio: mp3 (mp4a / 0x6134706D), 48000 Hz, stereo,
fltp, 119 kb/s (default)
    Metadata:
      handler_name    : SoundHandler

Does 50 tbc mean, that I still have 50 interlaced half-frames per
second, or why is the codecs timebase 50?

Thanks for your comments

-Ulf


> Not necessarily related: "-c copy" cannot change anything
> about fields ("half-frames"),

I didn't expect that, the question was about: -c:v libx264

>  libx264 does not support PAFF
> encoding.

What is PAFF?

Thanks in advance

-Ulf

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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
2019-01-12 22:32 GMT+01:00, Ulf Zibis <[hidden email]>:

> Am 11.01.19 um 01:47 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>> 2019-01-11 0:39 GMT+01:00, Ulf Zibis <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> tbn
>> This is the container timebase, 90k for mpeg streams.
>
> For what stands 90k? For 90,000 milli seconds?

It stands for a timebase of 1/90000 which is the timebase
for all mpeg streams (and cannot be changed afaik).

>>> -movflags +faststart -c copy CYD_copy.vob
>> Sadly, output option cannot (easily) be checked for correctness.
>> Using options that cannot have an effect may reduce your
>> chance to get good help here (consider the increased time it
>> needs to understand what's going on / what your intentions are).
>
> The probably wrong '+' was taken from the example in the Wiki:
> https://trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Encode/H.264#AdditionalInformationTips
> Maybe this is an error?
> Because VOB also is coded with MPEG, I thought this flag may have a
> positive effect.
> Anyway, without the flag I get the same ffprobe data.

The option "movflags" can only have an effect for mov (and friends)
output, not for mpeg streams.

[...]

> Does 50 tbc mean, that I still have 50 interlaced half-frames per
> second, or why is the codecs timebase 50?

No, it means that the codec timebase is 1/50.

(The reason that these answers do not really help you
is that the values are not necessarily meant for you,
they typically have more meaning for developers.)

[...]

>>  libx264 does not support PAFF encoding.
>
> What is PAFF?

H.264 field-encoding, another method of h.264 interlaced
encoding exists, MBAFF (which is supported by libx264).

Carl Eugen
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
Hi,

Am 13.01.19 um 00:25 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>>>> tbn
>>> This is the container timebase, 90k for mpeg streams.
>> For what stands 90k? For 90,000 milli seconds?
> It stands for a timebase of 1/90000

Is it 1/90000 second?

> which is the timebase
> for all mpeg streams (and cannot be changed afaik).
Do you mean MPEG-2 with "mpeg"?
My MPEG-4 stream has

12800 tbn


>> Does 50 tbc mean, that I still have 50 interlaced half-frames per
>> second, or why is the codecs timebase 50?
> No, it means that the codec timebase is 1/50.
>
> (The reason that these answers do not really help you
> is that the values are not necessarily meant for you,
> they typically have more meaning for developers.)
>
> [...]
>
>>>  libx264 does not support PAFF encoding.
>> What is PAFF?
> H.264 field-encoding, another method of h.264 interlaced
> encoding exists, MBAFF (which is supported by libx264).

So if I want to retain the interlacing from the vob file, I should use
MBAFF. What is the ffmpeg option for this?

Which is the de-interlacing method, libx264 uses by default?

I'm interested in that, because I imagine, that it would be better for
the quality to retain the interlacing, i.e. then the video player is
able to write 50 half-frames per second to the output display, which
provides better quality than 25 merged progressive frames per second.
Does my assumption hold?
But unfortunately I do not know, if my video (DVD-R recorded from a VHS
cassette) originally was telecined from an analogue celluloid film or
was produced directly on video tape (which should be true interlaced).
Any idea, how I can detect this? It was a low budget production in 1982.

-Ulf


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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
2019-01-15 3:13 GMT+01:00, Ulf Zibis <[hidden email]>:

> Am 13.01.19 um 00:25 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>>>>> tbn
>>>> This is the container timebase, 90k for mpeg streams.
>>> For what stands 90k? For 90,000 milli seconds?
>> It stands for a timebase of 1/90000
>
> Is it 1/90000 second?

I suspect timebase is a fraction and has no unit but I may
be wrong.

>> which is the timebase
>> for all mpeg streams (and cannot be changed afaik).
> Do you mean MPEG-2 with "mpeg"?

MPEG program and MPEG transport streams are (also)
defined in the MPEG-2 standard (that also defines
several other things).

> My MPEG-4 stream has
>
> 12800 tbn

Command line and complete, uncut console output missing.

[...]

>>>>  libx264 does not support PAFF encoding.
>>> What is PAFF?
>> H.264 field-encoding, another method of h.264 interlaced
>> encoding exists, MBAFF (which is supported by libx264).
>
> So if I want to retain the interlacing from the vob file, I should use
> MBAFF. What is the ffmpeg option for this?

Probably "-flags +ilme+ildct"

> Which is the de-interlacing method, libx264 uses by default?

x264 is an encoder and knows nothing about de-interlacing,
it does not de-interlace.

> I'm interested in that, because I imagine, that it would be better
> for the quality to retain the interlacing

This is correct: If you use progressive encoding for interlaced
content, it either costs (a lot of) quality or bitrate.

> i.e. then the video player is able to write 50 half-frames per
> second to the output display, which provides better quality
> than 25 merged progressive frames per second.

Only (old!) CRTs can do this, so I assume this has no
relevance here.

> Does my assumption hold?

> But unfortunately I do not know, if my video (DVD-R recorded from a VHS
> cassette) originally was telecined from an analogue celluloid film or
> was produced directly on video tape (which should be true interlaced).
> Any idea, how I can detect this?

The "idet" filter can do this.

Carl Eugen
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
Hi again,

Am 15.01.19 um 12:54 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>>>>>> tbn
>>>>> This is the container timebase, 90k for mpeg streams.
>>>> For what stands 90k? For 90,000 milli seconds?
>>> It stands for a timebase of 1/90000
>> Is it 1/90000 second?
> I suspect timebase is a fraction and has no unit but I may be wrong.

Timebase without unit? What does it serve for?
If it's 1/90000 h, then it would be equal to 1/25 s, which would
perfectly align with the fps 25 of the file.

>>> which is the timebase for all mpeg streams (and cannot be changed afaik).
>> Do you mean MPEG-2 with "mpeg"?
> MPEG program and MPEG transport streams are (also)
> defined in the MPEG-2 standard (that also defines
> several other things).
>
>> My MPEG-4 stream has 12800 tbn
> Command line and complete, uncut console output missing.

I here refer to the output in my post from 2019-01-12 22:32 GMT+01:00

>> i.e. then the video player is able to write 50 half-frames per
>> second to the output display, which provides better quality
>> than 25 merged progressive frames per second.
> Only (old!) CRTs can do this, so I assume this has no
> relevance here.

You may be right. Technically I don't see an obstacle for a software
player to feed the video display buffer with 50 half-frames per second,
as most displays refresh rate is at least 50 per sec.

> The "idet" filter can do this.

I have tried that with:
$ ffmpeg -i CYD_atadenoise_H.264_mp3-q4.mp4 -vf idet
and get:
Trailing options were found on the commandline.
At least one output file must be specified.

Now I'm confused what to do, as I don't want to create another big file.
How is the correct syntax?

-Ulf

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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
2019-01-18 15:58 GMT+01:00, Ulf Zibis <[hidden email]>:

> Am 15.01.19 um 12:54 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>>>>>>> tbn
>>>>>> This is the container timebase, 90k for mpeg streams.
>>>>> For what stands 90k? For 90,000 milli seconds?
>>>> It stands for a timebase of 1/90000
>>> Is it 1/90000 second?
>> I suspect timebase is a fraction and has no unit but I may be wrong.
>
> Timebase without unit? What does it serve for?
> If it's 1/90000 h, then it would be equal to 1/25 s, which would
> perfectly align with the fps 25 of the file.

So it's 1/90000 sec.

[...]

>>> i.e. then the video player is able to write 50 half-frames per
>>> second to the output display, which provides better quality
>>> than 25 merged progressive frames per second.
>> Only (old!) CRTs can do this, so I assume this has no
>> relevance here.
>
> You may be right. Technically I don't see an obstacle for a software
> player to feed the video display buffer with 50 half-frames per second,
> as most displays refresh rate is at least 50 per sec.

I do though.
(It is simply not possible, you can only send frames to your
driver / display.)

>> The "idet" filter can do this.
>
> I have tried that with:
> $ ffmpeg -i CYD_atadenoise_H.264_mp3-q4.mp4 -vf idet
> and get:
> Trailing options were found on the commandline.
> At least one output file must be specified.
>
> Now I'm confused what to do, as I don't want to create another big file.
> How is the correct syntax?

One possibility is to add "-f null -".

Carl Eugen
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
Hi,

Am 18.01.19 um 16:44 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>> You may be right. Technically I don't see an obstacle for a software
>> player to feed the video display buffer with 50 half-frames per second,
>> as most displays refresh rate is at least 50 per sec.
> I do though.
> (It is simply not possible, you can only send frames to your
> driver / display.)
Well, but the software player could send 50 frames per second with
alternately updating only each 2nd top/bottom line.

> One possibility is to add "-f null -".

Thanks!

for the input vob I get:
=======================
$ ffmpeg -i CYD_copy.vob -vf idet -f null -
ffmpeg version 4.1-static https://johnvansickle.com/ffmpeg/  Copyright
(c) 2000-2018 the FFmpeg developers
  built with gcc 6.3.0 (Debian 6.3.0-18+deb9u1) 20170516
[.....]
Input #0, mpeg, from 'CYD_copy.vob':
  Duration: 01:16:20.74, start: 0.500000, bitrate: 7068 kb/s
    Stream #0:0[0x80]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 256 kb/s
    Stream #0:1[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, bt470bg,
top first), 704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0:1 -> #0:0 (mpeg2video (native) -> wrapped_avframe (native))
  Stream #0:0 -> #0:1 (ac3 (native) -> pcm_s16le (native))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
Output #0, null, to 'pipe:':
  Metadata:
    encoder         : Lavf58.20.100
    Stream #0:0: Video: wrapped_avframe, yuv420p, 704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR
4:3], q=2-31, 200 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbn, 25 tbc
    Metadata:
      encoder         : Lavc58.35.100 wrapped_avframe
    Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le, 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
    Metadata:
      encoder         : Lavc58.35.100 pcm_s16le
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 881664 >= 881664
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 0: 463 >= 463
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 930816 >= 930816
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 1732608 >= 1731073
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 0: 906 >= 906
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 0: 909 >= 909
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 1761792 >= 1761792
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 1855488 >= 1855488
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 2941440 >= 2941440
[.....]
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 218113536 >= 218113536
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 0: 113606 >= 113606
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 219217920 >= 219217920
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 0: 114181 >= 114181
frame=114684 fps=114 q=-0.0 Lsize=N/A time=01:16:20.72 bitrate=N/A
speed=4.53x   
video:60030kB audio:860178kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global
headers:0kB muxing overhead: unknown
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Repeated Fields: Neither:114683 Top:     1
Bottom:     0
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Single frame detection: TFF: 18738 BFF:
12770 Progressive: 42496 Undetermined: 40680
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Multi frame detection: TFF: 36759 BFF: 19705
Progressive: 58193 Undetermined:    27

for the output mp4 I get:
=======================
$ ffmpeg -i CYD_atadenoise_H.264_mp3-q4.mp4 -vf idet -f null -
[.....]
Input #0, mov,mp4,m4a,3gp,3g2,mj2, from 'CYD_atadenoise_H.264_mp3-q4.mp4':
  Metadata:
    major_brand     : isom
    minor_version   : 512
    compatible_brands: isomiso2avc1mp41
    encoder         : Lavf57.83.100
  Duration: 01:16:20.42, start: 0.000000, bitrate: 1403 kb/s
    Stream #0:0(und): Video: h264 (High) (avc1 / 0x31637661), yuv420p,
704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 1276 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 12800 tbn, 50
tbc (default)
    Metadata:
      handler_name    : VideoHandler
    Stream #0:1(und): Audio: mp3 (mp4a / 0x6134706D), 48000 Hz, stereo,
fltp, 119 kb/s (default)
    Metadata:
      handler_name    : SoundHandler
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (h264 (native) -> wrapped_avframe (native))
  Stream #0:1 -> #0:1 (mp3 (mp3float) -> pcm_s16le (native))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
Output #0, null, to 'pipe:':
  Metadata:
    major_brand     : isom
    minor_version   : 512
    compatible_brands: isomiso2avc1mp41
    encoder         : Lavf58.20.100
    Stream #0:0(und): Video: wrapped_avframe, yuv420p, 704x576 [SAR
12:11 DAR 4:3], q=2-31, 200 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbn, 25 tbc (default)
    Metadata:
      handler_name    : VideoHandler
      encoder         : Lavc58.35.100 wrapped_avframe
    Stream #0:1(und): Audio: pcm_s16le, 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
(default)
    Metadata:
      handler_name    : SoundHandler
      encoder         : Lavc58.35.100 pcm_s16le
frame=114502 fps=112 q=-0.0 Lsize=N/A time=01:16:20.08 bitrate=N/A
speed= 4.5x   
video:59935kB audio:860018kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global
headers:0kB muxing overhead: unknown
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x5e49d00] Repeated Fields: Neither:114501 Top:     1
Bottom:     0
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x5e49d00] Single frame detection: TFF: 11649 BFF: 
8023 Progressive: 78542 Undetermined: 16288
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x5e49d00] Multi frame detection: TFF: 14215 BFF:  8454
Progressive: 91824 Undetermined:     9

How do I interpret this data? There is 1 top frame, 0 bottom. Are these
videos interlaced?

Also not, that there is 50 tbc for the input and 25 tbc for the output.

-Ulf

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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
In reply to this post by Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
Hi,

Am 18.01.19 um 16:44 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:

> One possibility is to add "-f null -".

Thanks!

from the original dvd::rip chunks I get:
=======================

$ ffmpeg -i
"concat:001-C001/CYD-001.vob|001-C002/CYD-001.vob|001-C003/CYD-001.vob|001-C004/CYD-001.vob|001-C005/CYD-001.vob|001-C006/CYD-001.vob|001-C007/CYD-001.vob|001-C008/CYD-001.vob|001-C009/CYD-001.vob|001-C010/CYD-001.vob|001-C011/CYD-001.vob|001-C012/CYD-001.vob|001-C013/CYD-001.vob|001-C014/CYD-001.vob|001-C015/CYD-001.vob|001-C016/CYD-001.vob|001-C017/CYD-001.vob|001-C018/CYD-001.vob|001-C019/CYD-001.vob|001-C020/CYD-001.vob|001-C021/CYD-001.vob|001-C022/CYD-001.vob|001-C023/CYD-001.vob"
-vf idet -f null -
[.....]
Input #0, mpeg, from
'concat:001-C001/CYD-001.vob|001-C002/CYD-001.vob|001-C003/CYD-001.vob|001-C004/CYD-001.vob|001-C005/CYD-001.vob|001-C006/CYD-001.vob|001-C007/CYD-001.vob|001-C008/CYD-001.vob|001-C009/CYD-001.vob|001-C010/CYD-001.vob|001-C011/CYD-001.vob|001-C012/CYD-001.vob|001-C013/CYD-001.vob|001-C014/CYD-001.vob|001-C015/CYD-001.vob|001-C016/CYD-001.vob|001-C017/CYD-001.vob|001-C018/CYD-001.vob|001-C019/CYD-001.vob|001-C020/CYD-001.vob|001-C021/CYD-001.vob|001-C022/CYD-001.vob|001-C023/CYD-001.vob':
  Duration: 00:01:03.16, start: 0.231578, bitrate: 533831 kb/s
    Stream #0:0[0x1e0]: Video: mpeg2video (Main), yuv420p(tv, bt470bg,
top first), 704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], 25 fps, 25 tbr, 90k tbn, 50 tbc
    Stream #0:1[0x80]: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, stereo, fltp, 256 kb/s
Stream mapping:
  Stream #0:0 -> #0:0 (mpeg2video (native) -> wrapped_avframe (native))
  Stream #0:1 -> #0:1 (ac3 (native) -> pcm_s16le (native))
Press [q] to stop, [?] for help
Output #0, null, to 'pipe:':
  Metadata:
    encoder         : Lavf58.20.100
    Stream #0:0: Video: wrapped_avframe, yuv420p(top coded first
(swapped)), 704x576 [SAR 12:11 DAR 4:3], q=2-31, 200 kb/s, 25 fps, 25
tbn, 25 tbc
    Metadata:
      encoder         : Lavc58.35.100 wrapped_avframe
    Stream #0:1: Audio: pcm_s16le, 48000 Hz, stereo, s16, 1536 kb/s
    Metadata:
      encoder         : Lavc58.35.100 pcm_s16le
frame=120012 fps=200 q=-0.0 Lsize=N/A time=01:20:00.51 bitrate=N/A
speed=7.99x   
video:62819kB audio:900096kB subtitle:0kB other streams:0kB global
headers:0kB muxing overhead: unknown
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6144800] Repeated Fields: Neither:119990 Top:    11
Bottom:    11
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6144800] Single frame detection: TFF: 19273 BFF:
13254 Progressive: 42498 Undetermined: 44987
[Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6144800] Multi frame detection: TFF: 41292 BFF: 20428
Progressive: 58193 Undetermined:    99

Note, that there are no warnings like:
[null @ 0x6afafc0] Application provided invalid, non monotonically
increasing dts to muxer in stream 1: 881664 >= 881664

Also note, that there is "yuv420p(top coded first (swapped))" for the
output, which seems to be lost in the remuxing copy from:
$ ffmpeg -ss 00:03 -t 01:16:20 -i
"concat:001-C001/CYD-001.vob|001-C002/CYD-001.vob|001-C003/CYD-001.vob|001-C004/CYD-001.vob|001-C005/CYD-001.vob|001-C006/CYD-001.vob|001-C007/CYD-001.vob|001-C008/CYD-001.vob|001-C009/CYD-001.vob|001-C010/CYD-001.vob|001-C011/CYD-001.vob|001-C012/CYD-001.vob|001-C013/CYD-001.vob|001-C014/CYD-001.vob|001-C015/CYD-001.vob|001-C016/CYD-001.vob|001-C017/CYD-001.vob|001-C018/CYD-001.vob|001-C019/CYD-001.vob|001-C020/CYD-001.vob|001-C021/CYD-001.vob|001-C022/CYD-001.vob|001-C023/CYD-001.vob"
-c copy CYD_copy.vob

-Ulf

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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
In reply to this post by Ulf Zibis
2019-01-18 18:19 GMT+01:00, Ulf Zibis <[hidden email]>:

> $ ffmpeg -i CYD_copy.vob -vf idet -f null -
> ffmpeg version 4.1-static https://johnvansickle.com/ffmpeg/  Copyright

Not supported here!

> (c) 2000-2018 the FFmpeg developers
>   built with gcc 6.3.0 (Debian 6.3.0-18+deb9u1) 20170516

> [.....]

Not ok!

[...]

> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Repeated Fields: Neither:114683 Top:     1
> Bottom:     0
> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Single frame detection: TFF: 18738 BFF:
> 12770 Progressive: 42496 Undetermined: 40680
> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Multi frame detection: TFF: 36759 BFF: 19705
> Progressive: 58193 Undetermined:    27

This is not conclusive, possibly mixed progressive - interlaced or
interlaced with many scenes without movement.
Visual inspection should clarify.

Carl Eugen
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Moritz Barsnick
In reply to this post by Ulf Zibis
On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 18:19:05 +0100, Ulf Zibis wrote:
> > (It is simply not possible, you can only send frames to your
> > driver / display.)
> Well, but the software player could send 50 frames per second with
> alternately updating only each 2nd top/bottom line.

It could. But if the display is anything else than an old CRT, it will
first deinterlace internally. LEDs and LCDs would give you headaches if
they displayed alternating lines, as the "afterglow" effect of CRTs,
retaining the line's content, is not present.

Now, whether your deinterlacer or the display's is to be considered
better, is up to you. (In my experience, there's a wide variation in
the performance of scalers, both HW and SW. I assume the same is valid
for deinterlacers.) But encoding/compressing interlaced content gives
me a yucky feeling, I would always prefer encoding deinterlaced.

Moritz
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 18:19:05 +0100, Ulf Zibis wrote:
>> > (It is simply not possible, you can only send frames to your
>> > driver / display.)
>> Well, but the software player could send 50 frames per second with
>> alternately updating only each 2nd top/bottom line.

(I don't see this email)

This deinterlacing method is called "weave", this is not what CRT's
do (as Moritz explained), most people do not like the results.
(Although some do!)

Carl Eugen
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
In reply to this post by Moritz Barsnick

Am 19.01.19 um 17:30 schrieb Moritz Barsnick:
>> Well, but the software player could send 50 frames per second with alternately updating only each 2nd top/bottom line.
> It could. But if the display is anything else than an old CRT, it will first deinterlace internally.
Why should it do this?  There is nothing to deinterlace it the display
is fed with 50 full frames per sec., but with only each 2nd line
alternately updated with new data.

> LEDs and LCDs would give you headaches if they displayed alternating lines, as the "afterglow" effect of CRTs, retaining the line's content, is not present.

If each 2nd line would be empty (black) you may be right, but if the
intermediate lines are filled with the content of the before frame, you
have the "afterglow" effect perfectly simulated also on LCD and LED.

-Ulf


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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
In reply to this post by Carl Eugen Hoyos-2

Am 19.01.19 um 23:29 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
> (I don't see this email)
What you mean by that?

> This deinterlacing method is called "weave", this is not what CRT's
> do (as Moritz explained), most people do not like the results.
> (Although some do!)

This method results in a 25 fps stream, if the original is a 50
half-frame per sec. stream, but what I mean is to send a 50 fps stream
where each 2nd line contains a copy of the proceeding half-frame. Each
video controller should be able to work with 50 fps streams.

-Ulf

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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Moritz Barsnick
In reply to this post by Ulf Zibis
On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 22:52:38 +0100, Ulf Zibis wrote:
> > LEDs and LCDs would give you headaches if they displayed alternating lines, as the "afterglow" effect of CRTs, retaining the line's content, is not present.
>
> If each 2nd line would be empty (black) you may be right, but if the
> intermediate lines are filled with the content of the before frame, you
> have the "afterglow" effect perfectly simulated also on LCD and LED.

Buffering the content of the "before frame" to leave it displayed while
the current frame provides every other line is certainly something I
would call classic "deinterlacing": You are describing a display which
first takes both fields of a frame and combines them to a progressive
one.

Moritz
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
In reply to this post by Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
Hi Carl Eugen,

Am 19.01.19 um 14:02 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>> $ ffmpeg -i CYD_copy.vob -vf idet -f null -
>> ffmpeg version 4.1-static https://johnvansickle.com/ffmpeg/  Copyright
> Not supported here!
>
>> (c) 2000-2018 the FFmpeg developers
>>   built with gcc 6.3.0 (Debian 6.3.0-18+deb9u1) 20170516
> Not ok!
This recommendation comes from here:
https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/7623#comment:5
So I used the release version 4.1 from here:
https://johnvansickle.com/ffmpeg/
in the assumption, that it is more stable as the git build.

>> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Repeated Fields: Neither:114683 Top:     1
>> Bottom:     0
>> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Single frame detection: TFF: 18738 BFF:
>> 12770 Progressive: 42496 Undetermined: 40680
>> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Multi frame detection: TFF: 36759 BFF: 19705
>> Progressive: 58193 Undetermined:    27
> This is not conclusive, possibly mixed progressive - interlaced or
> interlaced with many scenes without movement.
> Visual inspection should clarify.
Does that mean, that my vob stream is partly interlaced and partly
progressive?
I guess, TFF means top first frame and BFF bottom first frame, right?

This is weird, as the stream comes from a DVD which was recorded from a
VHS cassette with a hardware DVD recorder.

Also I do not understand, that after the transcoding to mp4 the numbers
are different. I interpret this, that the transcoding process does some
deinterlacing, but you say, the encoder does not. The vob with 114684
frames at 25 fps results in 76:27.36 length, but the resulting mp4 with
114502 frames is 76:20.08.

How can I understand all this?

-Ulf

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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
In reply to this post by Moritz Barsnick

Am 29.01.19 um 01:32 schrieb Moritz Barsnick:

> On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 22:52:38 +0100, Ulf Zibis wrote:
>>> LEDs and LCDs would give you headaches if they displayed alternating lines, as the "afterglow" effect of CRTs, retaining the line's content, is not present.
>> If each 2nd line would be empty (black) you may be right, but if the
>> intermediate lines are filled with the content of the before frame, you
>> have the "afterglow" effect perfectly simulated also on LCD and LED.
> Buffering the content of the "before frame" to leave it displayed while
> the current frame provides every other line is certainly something I
> would call classic "deinterlacing": You are describing a display which
> first takes both fields of a frame and combines them to a progressive
> one.

Yes, the software video player could transform the 25 fps interlaced
stream to a 50 fps progressive stream as I described to feed the
display. Then there would be no visual quality loss as known from
deinterlacing algorithms like "weave", comparable to the quality of a
interlaced CRT.

-Ulf

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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Carl Eugen Hoyos-2
In reply to this post by Ulf Zibis
2019-01-29 2:16 GMT+01:00, Ulf Zibis <[hidden email]>:

> Hi Carl Eugen,
>
> Am 19.01.19 um 14:02 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>>> $ ffmpeg -i CYD_copy.vob -vf idet -f null -
>>> ffmpeg version 4.1-static https://johnvansickle.com/ffmpeg/  Copyright
>> Not supported here!
>>
>>> (c) 2000-2018 the FFmpeg developers
>>>   built with gcc 6.3.0 (Debian 6.3.0-18+deb9u1) 20170516
>> Not ok!
> This recommendation comes from here:
> https://trac.ffmpeg.org/ticket/7623#comment:5

(So apparently the next sentence is wrong and Lou
does offer release support - but unfortunately only
to you because he closed ticket #7697 this week
explaining there is no release support...)

> So I used the release version 4.1 from here:
> https://johnvansickle.com/ffmpeg/
> in the assumption, that it is more stable as the git build.

The release version contains more known bugs (and there
are indications that it contains more unknown bugs) and
less features than current git head and there is no release
support on this mailing list.

>>> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Repeated Fields: Neither:114683 Top:     1
>>> Bottom:     0

I believe this rules out telecined content.

>>> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Single frame detection: TFF: 18738 BFF:
>>> 12770 Progressive: 42496 Undetermined: 40680
>>> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Multi frame detection: TFF: 36759 BFF: 19705
>>> Progressive: 58193 Undetermined:    27
>> This is not conclusive, possibly mixed progressive - interlaced or
>> interlaced with many scenes without movement.
>> Visual inspection should clarify.
> Does that mean, that my vob stream is partly interlaced and partly
> progressive?
> I guess, TFF means top first frame and BFF bottom first frame, right?
>
> This is weird, as the stream comes from a DVD which was recorded from a
> VHS cassette with a hardware DVD recorder.

This basically explains it: Such material is always low-quality, I
wonder if de-interlacing is possible at all (I don't immediately see
how from a theoretical pov, feel free to prove me wrong).

> Also I do not understand, that after the transcoding to mp4 the numbers
> are different. I interpret this, that the transcoding process does some
> deinterlacing, but you say, the encoder does not. The vob with 114684
> frames at 25 fps results in 76:27.36 length, but the resulting mp4 with
> 114502 frames is 76:20.08.

(Please understand that while I completely understand that you
have different questions, it is not always easy to remember
what issues were already discussed: I am sure you can calculate
the number of frames from the duration, the vob file is likely vfr,
FFmpeg only support writing cfr to mov, the last status line
has more information.)

> How can I understand all this?

(Independently from your actual converted material that
I suspect cannot be improved anyway because of its
origin: )
Again, visual inspection is necessary if the output of idet is
inconclusive, I tested idet with a random interlaced and a
(created) telecined stream and the output looked
absolutely conclusive. Mixed interlaced, progressive and
telecined video is absolutely possible, depending on the
actual content.
It could also be that your interlaced input was already
encoded, I suspect this can break the detection.

Carl Eugen
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Re: Meaning of ffprobe output

Ulf Zibis
Hi Carl Eugen,

thanks again for your patience.

Am 29.01.19 um 04:58 schrieb Carl Eugen Hoyos:
>
> (So apparently the next sentence is wrong and Lou
> does offer release support - but unfortunately only
> to you because he closed ticket #7697 this week
> explaining there is no release support...)
OK, but I see 2 differences: The user referred the more old version
3.4.4 compared to 4.1 I use and a segmentation fault is another class of
problem than interlace analysis data.

> The release version contains more known bugs (and there
> are indications that it contains more unknown bugs) and
> less features than current git head and there is no release
> support on this mailing list.
So for each post a new day I have to download and install a new git
build with the risk, of slightly different results each day?

>>>> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Single frame detection: TFF: 18738 BFF:
>>>> 12770 Progressive: 42496 Undetermined: 40680
>>>> [Parsed_idet_0 @ 0x6e71900] Multi frame detection: TFF: 36759 BFF: 19705
>>>> Progressive: 58193 Undetermined:    27
>>> This is not conclusive, possibly mixed progressive - interlaced or
>>> interlaced with many scenes without movement.
>>> Visual inspection should clarify.
Except ~1 min. at the beginning, the whole video has motion. With visual
inspection I can not see something, which would give me clarity. If you
want I could upload a 6 min. chunk with 300 MB.

>> Does that mean, that my vob stream is partly interlaced and partly
>> progressive?
>> I guess, TFF means top first frame and BFF bottom first frame, right?
>>
>> This is weird, as the stream comes from a DVD which was recorded from a
>> VHS cassette with a hardware DVD recorder.
> This basically explains it: Such material is always low-quality, I
> wonder if de-interlacing is possible at all (I don't immediately see
> how from a theoretical pov, feel free to prove me wrong).
My intention is not to transform to a deinterlaced progressive video. as
the interlaced one promises better visual quality, but the mixed one
makes me worrying to understand basic things. My intention is to have a
video which I can view without a DVD hardware, and which is better
compressed than with MPEG-2. Optionally I want to give some effort in
filtering some VHS artefacts, see my threads "How to filter VHS cassette
artifacts", "How to duplicate 1st line​", "Calculating offset of shifted
line​". It appears, that with "crop" I can't extract and process single
lines because of interlaced material, so I came to the idea, to
intermediately extract the interlaced fields separately, do the
filtering and again compose them back to an interlaced stream. With this
in mind I opened this thread, because ffprobe from the vob stream says
"yuv420p(tv, bt470bg, top first)", where I interpreted "top first" as an
indication, that this is a interlaced stream, but the ffprobe from the
transcoded mp4 stream does no more say "top first", so I was wondering
if the transcode process automatically does deinterlacing.

My understanding is, that a VHS cassette player always provides a fully
interlaced analogue stream (50 half-frames per sec. for PAL). With this
a DVD recorder has two options, (1) a interlaced vob stream or (2) a
deinterlaced progressive vob stream. Why should it create a mixed
stream? My explanation is, that the original VHS was marked with copy
protection, so the DVD recorder by legal reasons has to sustain the copy
protection by creating an intentionally corrupted DVD file system (which
is not readable from a computer) and additionally a corrupted vob
stream, which is detected and forbidden to copy by legal DVD copy
software. With dvd::rip (mplayer -dumpstream does the same) I was able
to work around the corrupted DVD file system and extract the also
corrupted vob stream, which is playable, but with broken time line and
with some audio errors. Remuxing this with ffmpeg -c copy repaired this,
but the result seems to be a mixture of interlaced and progressive frames.

I guess, my problem is, that I do not fully understand the ffmpeg data
model for video streams.
It seems to me, a 25 fps interlaced stream has 25 frames per sec., each
with 2 fields, top and bottom (50 fields per sec. in total) and a 25 fps
progressive stream has 25 frames per sec., each with 1 field.
So my video with "TFF: 36759 BFF: 19705 Progressive: 58193
Undetermined:    27" has 36759*2+19705*2+58193+27 = 171148 fields in
total, partly half, partly full ones. But idet says: "Repeated Fields:
Neither:114683 Top:     1 Bottom:     0"

Can you please help me to understand this?

>> Also I do not understand, that after the transcoding to mp4 the numbers
>> are different. I interpret this, that the transcoding process does some
>> deinterlacing, but you say, the encoder does not. The vob with 114684
>> frames at 25 fps results in 1:16:27.36 length, but the resulting mp4 with
>> 114502 frames is 1:16:20.08.
> (Please understand that while I completely understand that you
> have different questions, it is not always easy to remember
> what issues were already discussed: I am sure you can calculate
> the number of frames from the duration, the vob file is likely vfr,
> FFmpeg only support writing cfr to mov, the last status line
> has more information.)

I'm pleased to understand that. From my side there is the problem, that
I can not answer if the time gap is too small. I need concentration on
the subject and additionally time to translate my thoughts from german
to english.
What is vfr and cfr?

- Ulf
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